Ichthus77

In “Eternity in their Hearts,” Don Richardson talks about the backbone of Christianity, the Abrahamic Covenant, made by God to Abraham 4,000 years ago and recorded in Genesis 12:1-3. Dr. Ralph Winter, director of the United States Center for World Mission in Pasadena, California, explains that everything before Genesis 12 is just introduction and that the main theme does not get underway until God utters “the promise” or “the promises” to Abraham. This theme, this promise, is the backbone of Christianity because it explains the motivation behind everything occurring in this narrative which is now 4,000 years in the making.

Richardson explains that the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8) is not an after-thought of Jesus, but is a continuation of the Abrahamic Covenant, and that He had been preparing His disciples for it for the length of His ministry.

So, there are three points I want to flesh out in this thread, which are made in three different chapters of Richardson’s book (which I strongly recommend you purchase, as it covers how God has prepared minds in other cultures for His message – truly fascinating and eye-opening). 1. Jesus’ Great Commission of all Christians is rooted in and is a continuance of the Abrahamic Covenant. 2. A central goal of Jesus’ ministry was preparing the apostles’ minds to understand the all-peoples perspective of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Great Commission. 3. After Jesus’ ascension, it took a while, but the apostles did eventually grasp and accept the all-peoples perspective of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Great Commission.

1. Jesus’ Great Commission of all Christians is rooted in and is a continuance of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Genesis 12:1-3…

The top line: “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse.”

The bottom line: “. . .AND ALL PEOPLES ON EARTH WILL BE BLESSED THROUGH YOU.”

Zondervan NASB Study Bible note on vv.2-3: “In various ways and degrees, these promises were reaffirmed to Abram (v.7; 15:5-21; 17:4-8; 18:18-19; 22:17-18), to Isaac (26:2-4), to Jacob (28:13-15; 35:11-12; 46:3) and to Moses (Ex 3:6-8; 6:2-8). The seventh promise (Ichthus: all-peoples) is quoted in Acts 3:25 with reference to Peter’s Jewish listeners (see Acts 3:12)—Abram’s physical descendants—and in Gal 3:8 with reference to Paul’s Gentile listeners—Abram’s spiritual descendants.”

Richardson muses, “We sense immediately that the God who would speak such words is no petty tribal god. He is a God whose plans are both benign and universal, spanning all ages and cultures. If He retaliates against enemies of Abraham, it is not just to protect Abraham, but also to keep the enemies from extinguishing a fire kindled to warm the whole world!”

Richardson points out that Old Testament events are not limited to the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews:

1. Abraham himself bore witness to Canaanites, Philistines, Hittites and, rather negatively, to Egyptians.
2. Joseph was a son of Abraham who made up for his forefather’s lack of a clear witness to the Egyptian nation! Joseph blessed Egyptians in truly amazing ways.
3. The spies who entered Jericho before it was destroyed became a blessing to Rahab, a Canaanite harlot, and her family.
4. Naomi, a daughter of Abraham, was a blessing to two Moabite women, Ruth and Orpah.
5. Moses became a blessing to Jethro, his Midianite father-in-law.
6. King David caused even his enemies, the Philistines, to acknowledge God’s greatness.
7. The prophet Elijah was a blessing to a Sidonian widow in Zarephath.
8. The prophet Elisha, likewise, was a blessing to Naaman, a Syrian.
9. Jonah, however reluctantly, became a blessing to the Gentile population of Nineveh.
10. King Solomon was a blessing to the Sabaean “Queen of the South.”
11. Daniel and his three colleagues, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, were a blessing to Babylonians.
12. Esther and her uncle Mordecai were a blessing to the entire Persian Empire.
13. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Ezra, Nehemiah and other prophets declared the Word of the Lord to various Gentile nations.

Ichthus: I’m going to add one more (and I’m sure there’s more):
14. In addition to Rahab (see #3) and Ruth (see #4), both Gentile women, in the genealogy of Jesus, there is Tamar, also a Gentile woman, and Bathsheba, “thought to have come from among the Hittites (see 2 Sam 11:3),” (Richardson). Zondervan NASB Study Bible (1999) note on Matthew 1:3 says that “Bathsheba was probably an Israelite (1 Chr 3:5) but was closely associated with the Hittites because of Uriah, her Hittite husband. By including these women (contrary to custom) in his genealogy, Matthew may be indicating at the very outset of his Gospel that God’s activity is not limited to men or the people of Israel.”

Ichthus: see also Isaiah 2:2-4; 56:3,6-7; Zech 2:11; 8:20-23; Micah 4:1-5. “There are also more than 300 declarative passages in the Old Testament which amplify God’s oath-sealed promise to bless all nations on Earth (see, for example, Ps. 67 and Isa. 49:6),” (Richardson).

“Moving forward now to the New Testament, do we find God still adhering to His ancient commitment to both the top and bottom lines, or drifting from it?” (Richardson). See Galatians 3:8, 14, 16, 19, 29. “We Christians have generally failed to appreciate the fact that Paul and the other apostles saw the Abrahamic Covenant as basic to everything Christ came to accomplish,” (Richardson). See Acts 3:22-26; Eph 3:6; Rom 16:25-26; Col 1:25-27; Rom 15:8-9; Rev 5:9-10; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6 [“God will pursue His ancient purpose to the very end,” (Richardson).]

But “do the four Gospels reveal that [ Jesus ] manifested awareness of the covenant as foundational to His ministry? Read on…

2. A central goal of Jesus’ ministry was preparing the apostles’ minds to understand the all-peoples perspective of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Great Commission.

For warm-up, see Luke 1:54-55, 72-73,78 [“references to people ‘living in darkness’ and in ‘the shadow of death’ were commonly understood by Jews as designating Gentiles, see Matt 4:15-16,” (Richardson)]; 2:30-32; 3:4,6,8-9.

In claiming to be “I AM” (Ex 3:14) of the Jews, Jesus was claiming to be the God who made and keeps the Abrahamic Covenant (John 6:35; 8:12; 9:5; 10:7,9; 10:11,14; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1,5; Matt 27:43; Mark 14:62; John 8:24,28,58; 13:19; Rev 1:8, 17-18).

Jesus honored the Gentile region of Galilee with His first public sermons. “Mathew, one of Jesus’ disciples, recorded this fact as a fulfillment of the prophet Isaiah’s comment about ‘Galilee of the Gentiles’: ‘The people living in darkness have seen a great light: on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned’ (Matt 4:15-16; see also Isa 9:1-2). / ‘Large crowds form Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed’ Him, Matthew comments (4:25). ‘News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill…and He healed them’ (v.24).” (Richardson)

“Consider, for example, how compassionately Jesus exploited the following encounters with Gentiles and Samaritans to help His disciples think in cross-cultural terms … Surely Jesus’ example of compassion for a Roman centurion (Matt 8:5-13), a Syrophoenician mother (Matt 15:21-28; Mark 7:26-30), a Samaritan leper (Luke 7:11-19), a Gadarene demoniac (Matt 5:1-20), a Syrian general like Naaman and the widow of Zarephath (Luke 4:23-30), the men of Nineveh who repented (Matt 12:41), and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who perished without a clear call to repentance (Luke 10:13)—must now prove sufficient to melt prejudice from their hearts, replace that prejudice with ‘peoples consciousness,’ and send them on their way to the ends of the earth!” (Richardson). Ichthus: Richardson also mentions Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-34), Jesus’ mention of the “Queen of the South” (Matt 12:41-42), Jesus’ driving out the moneychangers from the Court of the Gentiles, defending our right to have our spiritual need represented in it (Matt 21:12; Mark 11:17-18; Isa 56:7; Jer 7:11), Jesus’ parables which are world-centered (all peoples), not just Israel-centered (see pp. 165-172, and see also Matt 13:24-30,33, 36-43; 21:18-20, 33-43; Deut 32:21; Rom 10:19; Mark 12:12), Jesus’ run-in with Jewish leaders trying to pit Him against Gentiles (Matt 22:17; Luke 21:24; 20:26), when Greeks sought audience with Jesus at a feast at Jerusalem (John 12:32), and his defense of Mary’s anointing Him (Mark 14:9).

“Meanwhile Jesus, though still ministering blessings to Jews on every hand (as required by the ‘top line’ of the Abrahamic Covenant), kept informing His disciples that they themselves must shortly minister to Gentiles as well. Once, for example, He sent them out on a training mission explaining that although at the moment He was sending them, not to Gentiles or Samaritans, but to ‘the lost sheep of Israel,’ later they would be ‘brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles!’ (Matt 10:5-6,18, emphasis added). / Jesus most likely placed this temporary restriction upon His disciples, not to encourage disregard for Gentiles and Samaritans, but because His disciples were still spiritually and mentally unprepared to undertake a cross-cultural mission,” (Richardson).

“Elsewhere Jesus forewarned His disciples that the end of the age could not happen until the gospel had first been ‘preached to all nations’ (Mark 13:10),” (Richardson). Ichthus: see also Matthew 24:14.

“The crucifixion, meanwhile, took place in that same ‘region of Moriah’ where Abraham—1,900 years before—once stood prepared to offer his son, the innocent Isaac, at God’s command. This time, however, there was no ‘ram caught in a thicket’ to take the place of the innocent Son. Instead, the ancient prophecy—‘in the mountain of the Lord it will be provided’—was fulfilled. / And Jesus was that provision. John, one of His disciples, later realized the significance of what happened that day, and wrote: ‘Jesus Christ, the Righteous One,…is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world’ (1 John 2:1-2). / This, then, was the first of the blessings which Abraham’s singular Descendant would share, not only with Jews like John, but with ‘the whole world’!” (Richardson)

Jesus explained it all to his bewildered disciples, after His resurrection, but before His ascension. “‘Then He opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise form the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things’” (Luke 24:45-48). But He still has not commanded them to go.

“And here is the wording of the command which the Abrahamic Covenant had already foreshadowed for 2,000 years, and which Jesus for three long years had been preparing His disciples to receive: ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age’ (Matt 28:18-20).” (Richardson)

“Still later, moments before He ascended back into heaven from the Mount of Olives (near Bethany), He added a further promise: ‘You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses…’ Then followed Jesus’ famous formula for the exocentric progression of the gospel: ‘…in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth’ (Acts 1:8).” (Richardson)

Richardson’s cliff-hanger to the chapter reads, “Jesus’ all-out effort to change 11 clannish Jews into cross-cultural apostles floated belly-up in defeat, until… Ah, but let us not get ahead of our story!”

3. After Jesus’ ascension, it took a while, but the apostles did eventually grasp and accept the all-peoples perspective of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Great Commission.

“Hundreds of millions of Christians think that Luke’s Acts of the Apostles records the 12 apostles’ obedience to the Great Commission. Actually it records their reluctance to obey it,” (Richardson).

Of the filling with the Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), the audience being the Jews of the Diaspora (the scattering), returning from “at least 15 different regions of the Near and Middle East…gathered in Jerusalem for a feast called Pentecost,” Richardson writes, “Seen in the context of Jesus’ ministry and His clearly articulated plans for the whole world, the bestowal of that miraculous outburst of Gentile languages (despite a common knowledge of Hebrew and/or Aramaic) could have only one main purpose: to make crystal clear that the Holy Spirit’s power was and is bestowed with the specific goal of evangelization of all peoples in view!”

Jerusalem down (Acts 5:28; 6:7) – the rest of the world to go.

“By the end of the seventh chapter of the book of Acts we find, however, that all of the apostles and their thousands of converts are still clustered in Jerusalem. … God’s solution was very simple, if painful: He scattered the Christians through persecution”–but “even persecution could not dislodge the apostles from home base” (Richardson) (see Acts 8:1). It was Philip (not the apostle, see Acts 6:1-5), a “layman”, who had broken Samaritan ice for the apostles (namely, Peter and John; see Acts 8:25). And it was Philip, the layman, who witnessed to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:25-40) who was reading Isaiah 53:7 (but see also the “strongly cross-cultural directive found in” Isaiah 18:2,7). “…in Acts 9:32 to 11:18, we find Peter again following in Philip’s footprints…” and God sets him up with a Roman centurion named Cornelius (Acts 10-11:18). Peter’s words in Acts 10:43, spoken to Cornelius’ and his family, sum it up well: “All the prophets testify about Him that everyone [the word “everyone” is unqualified] who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name” / “And at that moment the Holy Spirit overwhelmed Peter’s wistful Gentile audience just as He overwhelmed believing Jews on the day of Pentecost and outcasts of Samaria who were awakened first by deacon Philip’s ministry,” (Richardson). Peter had to defend himself to his Jewish-Christian critics (Acts 11:1-18) – and it looks like they finally started to understand. But apparently Peter had only partially-digested this lesson, as he and Paul have a disagreement concerning legalism, in Galatians 2:11-21.

But, for a number of possible reasons, the apostles suffered “headquarters fever” – sending out Barnabas as a deputy to Antioch. It was for the purpose of filling in where the other apostles were lacking that Jesus converts Saul/Paul (Acts 9) for the cause (Acts 13:2-3; Gal 2:6-7,9). At least the first apostles were not opposed to sending out others in obedience to the Great Commission, even if they themselves found it hard to do.

“Paul and Barnabas were fully assured that Gentiles who believe become ‘heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus…and are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household…a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit’ (Eph 3:6; 2:19,22).” (Richardson) / “Paul would even dare to say, as he wrote later in his epistles, that in Christ ‘there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female…[but those who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus’ (Gal 3:28). For Christ ‘has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility’ (Eph 2:14). See also Acts 13:46-47; 14:27.

After one of the church councils wherein Peter affirms, lesson learned, that “We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:9-11) and James adds that “[Peter] has described to us how God at first showed His concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself” (v.14), continuing with “The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent…that the remnant of men may see the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name’” (vv.15-17), –“it is possible that some of the original apostles, Palestine-bound—at least until that conference—finally began to open their eyes at this point to the possibilities of ministry among faraway Gentiles.” (Richardson) Richardson gives examples of how far certain apostles (John, Peter, Thomas, Andrew) ventured out, and some possible factors which may have contributed to their out-reaching.

Richardson’s conclusion to the book includes, “We hold in our hands the possibility of bringing God’s 4,000-year-old promise to final fruition.” (Ichthus: refer to Mark 13:10, Matthew 24:14 and 2 Peter 3:9.)

I. Some have argued that the God of today is not jealous like the God of Old Testament times (see “The Jealousy of God”). Such folks have argued that the God of today is a different God from the God of Old Testament times. But the argument can only refer to concepts of God which change as we learn more about God, as God is unchanging, and there is only one God. God is a jealous God, during both Old and New Testament times – still is, and always will be. That means that if you screw up your relationship with God, or do something to come in between God and someone else – God’s jealousy is the expected result. That will never change.

II. Some have also argued that it is okay to name a current god or goddess with the name of a god or goddess found in the Old Testament, even though the Old Testament god or goddess had a filthy reputation for receiving child sacrifices (and other muck), because the god or goddess of today is a different god or goddess from the god or goddess found in the Old Testament (so its name’s reputation doesn’t matter, because it is just a name, and not the actual god or goddess – or so the argument goes). In this case, the god or goddess being referred to admittedly doesn’t even exist, or has changed so much that it can’t even be considered the same being (although – would you not say the memories of your childhood self are ‘your’ memories, though you admittedly are no longer a child?). If there is any being at all being worshiped, it is not unchanging God – therefore it is not love, truth, or life. Rather, it is a counterfeit, and thus inferior, and will not bring us unity with God, who is love, truth, and life – it will bring the opposite: disunity with God… apathy, deception, and death (ultimately spiritual, but let us not forget the children who were sacrificed). The same is true now of counterfeits, that was true of them in Old Testament times (minus, perhaps, the child sacrifices). But it cannot be said that the gods or goddesses of today are the same or different from the gods or goddesses of Old Testament times, because counterfeits (IF representing real beings) are not perfect and unchanging like God, so there is no standard by which to measure one’s concepts. The only thing you can conclude with certainty is that your concepts do not represent God. It is interesting to note, however, that the gods and goddesses (counterfeits) of the Old Testament had interchangeable names… could be substituted in place of eachother… unlike the Genuine Article, for which there is no substitute. Do you ever feel replaceable, like anybody could do your job? God doesn’t see you that way – and that’s the last thing the counterfeits (IF representing real beings) want you to realize. The real God totally rejected the religious practices (which included child sacrifice) of those who worshiped counterfeits (see “Against gods, goddesses, and sycretism”).

There is also the question of why one would give a filthy name to that which one worships… which is probably answered with the same answer to why one would prefer to worship a counterfeit, rather than the real God… the real, unchanging source of love, truth, and life. Time to wake up and smell the vomit. Or, no, I meant roses…

The question this study sought to answer was whether or not God’s jealousy (Ex 20:5) contradicts His being love (1 John 4:8) if love is not jealous (1 Cor 13:4). I discover that it is really a question of semantics. I use Zondervan’s NASB Study Bible.

Exodus 20:5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God…”

NASB note: jealous God. God will not put up with rivalry or unfaithfulness. Usually His “jealousy” concerns Israel and assumes the covenant relationship (analogous to marriage) and the Lord’s exclusive right to possess Israel and to claim her love and allegiance. Actually, jealousy is part of the vocabulary of love. The “jealousy” of God (1) demands exclusive devotion to Himself (see 34:14; Deut 4:24; 32:16,21; Josh 24:19; Ps 78:58; 1 Cor 10:22; James 4:5), (2) delivers to judgment all who oppose Him (see Deut 29:20; 1 Kin 14:22; Ps 79:5; Is 42:13; 59:17; Ezek 5:13; 16:38; 23:25; 36:5; Nah 1:2; Zeph 1:18; 3:8) and (3) vindicates His people ( see 2 Kin 19:31; Is 9:7; 26:11; Ezek 39:25; Joel 2:18; Zech 1:14; 8:2). In some of these passages the meaning is closer to “zeal” (the same Hebrew word may be translated either way, depending on the context.)

Ichthus: the Hebrew word (for jealous/zeal) is listed in Strong’s Hebrew concordance as #7067 – there are free on-line lexicons (both Greek and Hebrew… one is at crosswalk.com) if you care to look it up using Strong’s number.

Does the above passage contradict the passages below?

1 Corinthians 13:4: “Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,” and 1 John 4:8: “The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”

The Greek word being used for “jealous” in 1 Cor 13:4 is listed in Strong’s as #2206. The New King James Version translates “jealous” (#2206 – I know… “jealous” is not Greek… but I do not have the transliterated word available… sorry) as “envy” in that verse (as well as a few others). In 2 Cor 11:2, where Paul says, “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy,” jealous is listed in Strong’s as #2206 and jealousy as #2205. The New King James version also uses the words ‘jealous’ and ‘jealousy’ in that verse. It should also be noted that the New King James Version translates “love” as “charity” in 1 Cor 13. The Strong’s number is 26. This Greek word is translated as “love” elsewhere in the Bible in the King James Version – many verses, including Romans 5:5,8.

If you look up #2205 (jealousy) in the concordance or lexicon, it says it can be used in a favorable or unfavorable sense. To me this says there is good jealousy and bad jealousy. For an example of good jealousy, see my “Get to know Mom by osmosis” thread. I think this is the godly jealousy referred to in Ex 20:5 and 2 Cor 11:2. An example of the ungodly jealousy would be the suspicious spouse who is jealous without cause… I believe this is the jealousy referred to in 1 Cor 13:4. Take care.

1a. Argument: Those of us who believe God would love or does love us believe so because we need to believe God would love or does love us, or we just think of ourselves as loveable – or evangelists told us, or we were raised that way.

1b. Consider this: Have you ever had to meet someone new and wondered whether they will like you? If so — did their “ability to like” have anything to do with whether or not you needed them to like you or considered yourself loveable or somebody else told you they would like you, or your mom raised you to believe they would like you (say it’s your grandpa or somebody)? Consider this, too: Why do we not phrase the question using the word “love” instead of “like” when we are talking about meeting a new ‘human’ – but we feel comfortable using the word “love” when we are talking about God? Why don’t we ask… Would God like me if He met me? Perhaps it is the subconscious awareness that He already knows you, and is free from social pretense. And where did that come from?

2a. Assumption: If God hates – then God does not love.

2b. Consider this: Is hate the opposite of love? Or is it rather apathy that is the opposite of love? If we didn’t hate certain things, then we couldn’t, in truth, love certain other things. You can hate certain ‘doings’ of a person, but overall love them despite the things they do which you hate. See Matthew 6:24 and 1 Kings 18:21. Consider this as well: what does God hate – or put the question another way – why does God hate? Review the verses you quoted (Ned) and I’ll give you some more to review (pardon if some of these you already mentioned): Deut. 12:31; 16:22; Ps. 5:5; 11:5; 45:7; Prov. 6:16; 8:13; Is. 1:14; 61:8; Jer. 12:8; 44:4; Hosea 9:15; Amos 5:21; 6:8; Zech. 8:17; Mal. 1:2-3; 2:16; Rom. 9:13; Heb. 1:9; Rev. 2:6. That’s all the verses I could find on God’s hate in my concordance – compare with the verses I found on God’s love at the end of this thread (yes, there are other words for hate, and ways of expressing it… there are also other words for love, and ways of expressing it). You will (re)discover that God hates: abominable acts like child sacrifice (in fire), worshiping and burning sacrifices to man-made artifacts (gods/idols) (read this satire: Jer. 10) (it is like going up to Mom with a ventriloquist dummy and saying, “Mom, you’ve been great, but now I want to be this dummy’s son,”), evil and doing iniquity/evil, loving violence, wickedness, haughty eyes, lying (including perjury and lying against another), shedding innocent blood, devising wicked plans, running rapidly to evil, spreading strife, pride, arrogance, perverting the truth, empty religious ritual, mistreating prisoners of war, when the beloved of His soul roars against Him, unfaithfully combining empty religious ritual in worship of God with the worship of other “gods” (it’s like cheating on your spouse while maintaining an empty sexual relationship with them), arrogance (in success) of self- and “god”-reliance (“god”-reliance is self-reliance, because the gods were man-made), devising evil in one’s heart against another, Esau (in the sense that He did not choose him – we can talk more about that if you like), divorce, being so filthy your clothes are covered with “wrong”/violence (see Mal. 3:5). So — “WHY” does God hate? – because He loves. He hates that which mucks up Love. If we do not walk with the Source of Love, we get something… that isn’t Love.

There is a buzz-phrase that says (if I remember correctly) “Love the sinner, not the sin.” You could reverse it and say, “Hate the sin, not the sinner.” However, a few of those “hate” verses show God hating the person. You must ask yourself: what makes the man? Is a person equal to what he does? In a sense, he is. Galatians 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” To be “born again” – to be made new – you must first go through a kind of death… we must become like little children. We have to see with new eyes, or we will never see.

Check out Ezek. 18:23; 18:32; 33:11; 2 Peter 3:9.

Does the reality of suffering mean God hates us? Perhaps it is when we are suffering that we truly learn (if we accept) and reflect to others how much He really does love us and is the only source of strength to overcome – consider Luke 23:34 and Acts 5:41-42, and Acts 7:60. Suffering can push us away from or draw us closer to God.

Does punishment or judgment mean God hates us? No — the Lord disciplines His children/beloved: Ezekiel 16, Hosea 9:15, Rev. 3:19, Job 5:17, Ps. 94:12, 1 Cor. 11:32, Mark 10:21, Prov. 3:11-12, Heb. 12:5-11, Ps. 89:32-33, Jer. 16:5, Psalm 119:71-72; Job 2:10; Isaiah 35:4; Psalm 30:5; Psalm 51:8. God’s love is not different from His desiring that we turn away from sin (repentance, obedience to the royal law of Love). When we say “God loves you” — it includes that He will shape you and mold you — discipline you into a true disciple. It includes that He hates sin, because sin gets in the way of Love.

The cross, rather than being a “single instance” or “one occasion” of love (though it did necessarily take place in time, and so John can refer to it in the past tense), was an expression of unconditional, eternal, infinite love. See Romans 5:5-11. Love is a divine attribute (1 John 4:8) – God is eternal (Deut. 33:27, Is. 9:6, Eph. 3:11, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 9:14, Rev. 14:6), God is love, therefore love is eternal (1 Cor. 13). If that love is not available for everyone, these verses make no sense: 1 Tim. 1:13-16, Acts 10, Acts 13:47, Luke 2:32, Luke 5:31-32, Hebrews 10:1-18.

Most importantly, God wants us to love each other. The best way we can ever worship God (Matthew 25:35-46; 26:10) is by loving each other – that is His royal law [James 2:8 NASB note: The law of love (Lev. 19:18) is called “royal” because it is the supreme law that is the source of all other laws governing human relationships. It is the summation of all such laws (Matt 22:36-40; Rom 13:8-10, Gal. 5:14)]. He hates it when we do not love each other (see 2b). Would an unloving God command this:

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (NASB note says that in Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus corrects a misinterpretation of this Leviticus 19:18 verse – the misinterpretation was made by the stricter Pharisaical school of Shammai.) In Matt. 22:39, Mark 12:31 and Luke 10:27, Jesus combines the Shema (Deut. 6:5) with the royal law “to show that love for neighbor is a natural and logical outgrowth of love for God,” (NASB note).

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12)

Verses on God’s love (this index only includes all verses which use the word love in its various forms, according to Strong’s concordance, based on the KJV translation – this index does not include all verses which show God’s love in action, and does not include all the verses in this thread):

Deut. 4:37; 7:7-9, 13; 10:15, 18; 23:5; 33:3; 2 Sam. 12:24; 1 Kin. 10:9; 2 Chr. 2:11; 9:8; Ps. 11:7; 17:7; 25:6; 26:3; 33:5; 36:7, 10; 37:28; 40:10, 11; 42:8; 45:7; 47:4; 48:9; 51:1; 63:3; 69:16; 78:68; 87:2; 88:11; 89:33, 49; 92:2; 99:4; 103:4; 107:43; 119:88, 149, 159; 138:2; 143:8; 146:8; Prov. 8:17; 15:9; Is. 43:4; 48:14; 63:7, 9; Jer. 9:24; 16:5; 31:3; 32:18; Eze. 16:8; Hos. 2:19; 3:1; 9:15; 11:1, 4; 14:4; Zeph. 3:17; Mal. 1:2; 2:11; Mark 10:21; Jn 3:16, 35; 5:20; 10:17; 11:3, 5, 36; 13:1, 23, 34; 14:21, 23; 15:9-17; 16:27; 17:23, 24, 26; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20; Rom. 5:5, 8; 8:35, 37, 39; 9:13; 2 Cor. 5:14; 9:7; 13:11, 14; Gal. 2:20; 5:22; Eph. 2:4; 3:19; 5:2, 25; 6:23; 2 Thess. 2:16; 3:5; 1 Tim. 1:14; Titus 3:4; Heb. 1:9; 12:6; 1 Jn 2:15; 3:1, 16, 17; 4:7-12, 16, 19; 5:3; Rev. 1:5; 3:9, 19.

Since worshipping humans, not to mention things existing in nature or carved by humans, or beings of the imagination which don’t even exist, would be a sign of – “off”ness – why worship God? Why isn’t the desire to worship itself a universal sign of “off”ness?

What is worship? Where does the desire/need to worship come from (weakness of character – sheep mentality?)? What inside us motivates us to worship someone/something? Has God ever stopped us from worshipping Him (has He ever said that the desire to worship Him is “off”?), or from worshipping Him in a certain way that He considered “off” (and then showed us an acceptable way?)?

I don’t think there is a conflict of interest (all by itself) in believing “exactly what soothes your existential worries and offers a validating meaning in the meaninglessness” if you take out the part about meaninglessness. I mean — if you automatically rule out as untrue anything that would soothe your existential worries, yadda yadda yadda — if you automatically rule out the possibility of meaning — isn’t that a conflict of interest (in more ways than one)?

Adopted children seek their biological parents to answer the question “How am I supposed to be?” We seek out our spiritual Creator (in whatever way ‘filling the void’ manifests, be it space exploration, Buddhism, or going straight to the source: God) to answer the same question, on a higher level. To say we can give spiritual birth to ourselves (“phoenix rising from the ashes”) is as practical as saying we can give natural birth to ourselves. He is that which completes us, He is the missing piece of the puzzle.

Reverential respect and admiration at it’s highest form is worship. The person or object you show the most respect and admiration is the person or object you worship (think really quick: who is that person in your life?). That person should be the person most worthy of respect and admiration, who has the most influence on you and most challenges you: God. You show respect in the same ways you show someone that you like or love them. How you honor humans by showing them reverential respect and admiration, and how you ask them for help, and all other forms of discourse with them, differs from how you communicate with an invisible God (free from social pretense).

The way we have worshipped has changed over the ages. God set up many ways of worship for the purpose of distinguishing Himself from the false gods and detestable ways of worshipping them. People are humbled and feel a need to worship when faced with the presence of God, and He has given us acceptable ways of doing so. If you are really interested, read the Old Testament. Hebrews and Romans are good New Testament sources for how things have changed since the Old Testament. John 15:15

I think one of the best ways to worship God is to follow His command to love eachother.

For a long time I have wondered “Why is there only one way to heaven?” I lost faith over questions like that. I walked away and became an atheist – I stopped asking “which way” and started asserting “death is just a sleep from which we never wake up”. I thought I would never have faith again, but I was wrong. He found me. The amazing things He did in my life were enough to “tide me over” – and once the old unanswered questions began to wash up on the shore once more – He began to answer them.

You don’t learn the contents of a book by osmosis. You have to read it. You don’t get to know your Mom… your best friend… your dog… by getting to know a tree or a rock or a statue – or a book about somebody else. The best way to get to know a person is by spending some time with them – not some person who, for example, has an intimate knowledge of their media persona. A good start, if you’ve never even met a person and you want to get to know them, is by reading their autobiography, how they have affected the world, what they’ve had to say to the world. That way, when you go to meet them for the first time, you’ll be able to recognize them (and be equipped with good talking points!). You don’t want second-hand rumors, you don’t want best guesses – that is, IF you want the truth, and IF you want to get to know them deeply (as deeply as He wants you to know Him – and that’s ‘deepest’). If you don’t want to know – you are nearly a phantom already, dying from apathy – but God can save you yet.

The way I see it, being that God exists and is revealing Himself to man, then every religion/philosophy except (if any) one is just giving their best guess about the way things are. (Before I was saved, I would have said every last one of them is just making stuff up.) God found me and led me back to where we left off (my bookmark was in James chapter 2, by the way…)… and I’ll never leave His side again.