Ichthus77

1a. Argument: Those of us who believe God would love or does love us believe so because we need to believe God would love or does love us, or we just think of ourselves as loveable – or evangelists told us, or we were raised that way.

1b. Consider this: Have you ever had to meet someone new and wondered whether they will like you? If so — did their “ability to like” have anything to do with whether or not you needed them to like you or considered yourself loveable or somebody else told you they would like you, or your mom raised you to believe they would like you (say it’s your grandpa or somebody)? Consider this, too: Why do we not phrase the question using the word “love” instead of “like” when we are talking about meeting a new ‘human’ – but we feel comfortable using the word “love” when we are talking about God? Why don’t we ask… Would God like me if He met me? Perhaps it is the subconscious awareness that He already knows you, and is free from social pretense. And where did that come from?

2a. Assumption: If God hates – then God does not love.

2b. Consider this: Is hate the opposite of love? Or is it rather apathy that is the opposite of love? If we didn’t hate certain things, then we couldn’t, in truth, love certain other things. You can hate certain ‘doings’ of a person, but overall love them despite the things they do which you hate. See Matthew 6:24 and 1 Kings 18:21. Consider this as well: what does God hate – or put the question another way – why does God hate? Review the verses you quoted (Ned) and I’ll give you some more to review (pardon if some of these you already mentioned): Deut. 12:31; 16:22; Ps. 5:5; 11:5; 45:7; Prov. 6:16; 8:13; Is. 1:14; 61:8; Jer. 12:8; 44:4; Hosea 9:15; Amos 5:21; 6:8; Zech. 8:17; Mal. 1:2-3; 2:16; Rom. 9:13; Heb. 1:9; Rev. 2:6. That’s all the verses I could find on God’s hate in my concordance – compare with the verses I found on God’s love at the end of this thread (yes, there are other words for hate, and ways of expressing it… there are also other words for love, and ways of expressing it). You will (re)discover that God hates: abominable acts like child sacrifice (in fire), worshiping and burning sacrifices to man-made artifacts (gods/idols) (read this satire: Jer. 10) (it is like going up to Mom with a ventriloquist dummy and saying, “Mom, you’ve been great, but now I want to be this dummy’s son,”), evil and doing iniquity/evil, loving violence, wickedness, haughty eyes, lying (including perjury and lying against another), shedding innocent blood, devising wicked plans, running rapidly to evil, spreading strife, pride, arrogance, perverting the truth, empty religious ritual, mistreating prisoners of war, when the beloved of His soul roars against Him, unfaithfully combining empty religious ritual in worship of God with the worship of other “gods” (it’s like cheating on your spouse while maintaining an empty sexual relationship with them), arrogance (in success) of self- and “god”-reliance (“god”-reliance is self-reliance, because the gods were man-made), devising evil in one’s heart against another, Esau (in the sense that He did not choose him – we can talk more about that if you like), divorce, being so filthy your clothes are covered with “wrong”/violence (see Mal. 3:5). So — “WHY” does God hate? – because He loves. He hates that which mucks up Love. If we do not walk with the Source of Love, we get something… that isn’t Love.

There is a buzz-phrase that says (if I remember correctly) “Love the sinner, not the sin.” You could reverse it and say, “Hate the sin, not the sinner.” However, a few of those “hate” verses show God hating the person. You must ask yourself: what makes the man? Is a person equal to what he does? In a sense, he is. Galatians 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” To be “born again” – to be made new – you must first go through a kind of death… we must become like little children. We have to see with new eyes, or we will never see.

Check out Ezek. 18:23; 18:32; 33:11; 2 Peter 3:9.

Does the reality of suffering mean God hates us? Perhaps it is when we are suffering that we truly learn (if we accept) and reflect to others how much He really does love us and is the only source of strength to overcome – consider Luke 23:34 and Acts 5:41-42, and Acts 7:60. Suffering can push us away from or draw us closer to God.

Does punishment or judgment mean God hates us? No — the Lord disciplines His children/beloved: Ezekiel 16, Hosea 9:15, Rev. 3:19, Job 5:17, Ps. 94:12, 1 Cor. 11:32, Mark 10:21, Prov. 3:11-12, Heb. 12:5-11, Ps. 89:32-33, Jer. 16:5, Psalm 119:71-72; Job 2:10; Isaiah 35:4; Psalm 30:5; Psalm 51:8. God’s love is not different from His desiring that we turn away from sin (repentance, obedience to the royal law of Love). When we say “God loves you” — it includes that He will shape you and mold you — discipline you into a true disciple. It includes that He hates sin, because sin gets in the way of Love.

The cross, rather than being a “single instance” or “one occasion” of love (though it did necessarily take place in time, and so John can refer to it in the past tense), was an expression of unconditional, eternal, infinite love. See Romans 5:5-11. Love is a divine attribute (1 John 4:8) – God is eternal (Deut. 33:27, Is. 9:6, Eph. 3:11, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 9:14, Rev. 14:6), God is love, therefore love is eternal (1 Cor. 13). If that love is not available for everyone, these verses make no sense: 1 Tim. 1:13-16, Acts 10, Acts 13:47, Luke 2:32, Luke 5:31-32, Hebrews 10:1-18.

Most importantly, God wants us to love each other. The best way we can ever worship God (Matthew 25:35-46; 26:10) is by loving each other – that is His royal law [James 2:8 NASB note: The law of love (Lev. 19:18) is called “royal” because it is the supreme law that is the source of all other laws governing human relationships. It is the summation of all such laws (Matt 22:36-40; Rom 13:8-10, Gal. 5:14)]. He hates it when we do not love each other (see 2b). Would an unloving God command this:

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (NASB note says that in Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus corrects a misinterpretation of this Leviticus 19:18 verse – the misinterpretation was made by the stricter Pharisaical school of Shammai.) In Matt. 22:39, Mark 12:31 and Luke 10:27, Jesus combines the Shema (Deut. 6:5) with the royal law “to show that love for neighbor is a natural and logical outgrowth of love for God,” (NASB note).

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12)

Verses on God’s love (this index only includes all verses which use the word love in its various forms, according to Strong’s concordance, based on the KJV translation – this index does not include all verses which show God’s love in action, and does not include all the verses in this thread):

Deut. 4:37; 7:7-9, 13; 10:15, 18; 23:5; 33:3; 2 Sam. 12:24; 1 Kin. 10:9; 2 Chr. 2:11; 9:8; Ps. 11:7; 17:7; 25:6; 26:3; 33:5; 36:7, 10; 37:28; 40:10, 11; 42:8; 45:7; 47:4; 48:9; 51:1; 63:3; 69:16; 78:68; 87:2; 88:11; 89:33, 49; 92:2; 99:4; 103:4; 107:43; 119:88, 149, 159; 138:2; 143:8; 146:8; Prov. 8:17; 15:9; Is. 43:4; 48:14; 63:7, 9; Jer. 9:24; 16:5; 31:3; 32:18; Eze. 16:8; Hos. 2:19; 3:1; 9:15; 11:1, 4; 14:4; Zeph. 3:17; Mal. 1:2; 2:11; Mark 10:21; Jn 3:16, 35; 5:20; 10:17; 11:3, 5, 36; 13:1, 23, 34; 14:21, 23; 15:9-17; 16:27; 17:23, 24, 26; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20; Rom. 5:5, 8; 8:35, 37, 39; 9:13; 2 Cor. 5:14; 9:7; 13:11, 14; Gal. 2:20; 5:22; Eph. 2:4; 3:19; 5:2, 25; 6:23; 2 Thess. 2:16; 3:5; 1 Tim. 1:14; Titus 3:4; Heb. 1:9; 12:6; 1 Jn 2:15; 3:1, 16, 17; 4:7-12, 16, 19; 5:3; Rev. 1:5; 3:9, 19.

Since worshipping humans, not to mention things existing in nature or carved by humans, or beings of the imagination which don’t even exist, would be a sign of – “off”ness – why worship God? Why isn’t the desire to worship itself a universal sign of “off”ness?

What is worship? Where does the desire/need to worship come from (weakness of character – sheep mentality?)? What inside us motivates us to worship someone/something? Has God ever stopped us from worshipping Him (has He ever said that the desire to worship Him is “off”?), or from worshipping Him in a certain way that He considered “off” (and then showed us an acceptable way?)?

I don’t think there is a conflict of interest (all by itself) in believing “exactly what soothes your existential worries and offers a validating meaning in the meaninglessness” if you take out the part about meaninglessness. I mean — if you automatically rule out as untrue anything that would soothe your existential worries, yadda yadda yadda — if you automatically rule out the possibility of meaning — isn’t that a conflict of interest (in more ways than one)?

Adopted children seek their biological parents to answer the question “How am I supposed to be?” We seek out our spiritual Creator (in whatever way ‘filling the void’ manifests, be it space exploration, Buddhism, or going straight to the source: God) to answer the same question, on a higher level. To say we can give spiritual birth to ourselves (“phoenix rising from the ashes”) is as practical as saying we can give natural birth to ourselves. He is that which completes us, He is the missing piece of the puzzle.

Reverential respect and admiration at it’s highest form is worship. The person or object you show the most respect and admiration is the person or object you worship (think really quick: who is that person in your life?). That person should be the person most worthy of respect and admiration, who has the most influence on you and most challenges you: God. You show respect in the same ways you show someone that you like or love them. How you honor humans by showing them reverential respect and admiration, and how you ask them for help, and all other forms of discourse with them, differs from how you communicate with an invisible God (free from social pretense).

The way we have worshipped has changed over the ages. God set up many ways of worship for the purpose of distinguishing Himself from the false gods and detestable ways of worshipping them. People are humbled and feel a need to worship when faced with the presence of God, and He has given us acceptable ways of doing so. If you are really interested, read the Old Testament. Hebrews and Romans are good New Testament sources for how things have changed since the Old Testament. John 15:15

I think one of the best ways to worship God is to follow His command to love eachother.

For a long time I have wondered “Why is there only one way to heaven?” I lost faith over questions like that. I walked away and became an atheist – I stopped asking “which way” and started asserting “death is just a sleep from which we never wake up”. I thought I would never have faith again, but I was wrong. He found me. The amazing things He did in my life were enough to “tide me over” – and once the old unanswered questions began to wash up on the shore once more – He began to answer them.

You don’t learn the contents of a book by osmosis. You have to read it. You don’t get to know your Mom… your best friend… your dog… by getting to know a tree or a rock or a statue – or a book about somebody else. The best way to get to know a person is by spending some time with them – not some person who, for example, has an intimate knowledge of their media persona. A good start, if you’ve never even met a person and you want to get to know them, is by reading their autobiography, how they have affected the world, what they’ve had to say to the world. That way, when you go to meet them for the first time, you’ll be able to recognize them (and be equipped with good talking points!). You don’t want second-hand rumors, you don’t want best guesses – that is, IF you want the truth, and IF you want to get to know them deeply (as deeply as He wants you to know Him – and that’s ‘deepest’). If you don’t want to know – you are nearly a phantom already, dying from apathy – but God can save you yet.

The way I see it, being that God exists and is revealing Himself to man, then every religion/philosophy except (if any) one is just giving their best guess about the way things are. (Before I was saved, I would have said every last one of them is just making stuff up.) God found me and led me back to where we left off (my bookmark was in James chapter 2, by the way…)… and I’ll never leave His side again.